[KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum

Cahill, Conor P conor.p.cahill at intel.com
Thu Jan 21 13:28:59 EST 2010


I just don't think that an override is necessary.  I think our current 
behavioral model with respect to quorum is in line with how all standards
bodies that I've been involved with and is in line with a strict reading
of the current RONR.

In any case, I'll go along with whatever you guys want to do.

Conor

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Trent Adams [mailto:adams at isoc.org] 
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:08 PM
To: Brett McDowell
Cc: Cahill, Conor P; LC at kantarainitiative.org
Subject: Re: [KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum

Brett -

Brett McDowell wrote:
> That last point Trent is an interesting one.  Remember, RONR only applies for process we don't define ourselves.  It fills the gaps.  If we have a policy for something, our own policy always takes precedent over RONR.
>   

Yup.  That's why I'm not gonna' fall on my sword over it, but rather
allow the LC to define our specific (and over-riding) rules of engagement.

I'm happy to entertain a motion (on this list or a call) to over-ride,
if someone wants to do so.

- Trent


> On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:00 PM, J. Trent Adams wrote:
>
>   
>> Conor -
>>
>> Cahill, Conor P wrote:
>>     
>>> Two points in response:
>>>
>>> a) it's that the chair notices the *change in quorum* not that they 
>>> notice something that might possibly indicate a potential change in
>>> quorum.   Just because you hear a sound that sounds like somebody 
>>> might have left, doesn't actually mean that someone has left or that
>>> one of the members who were part of the quorum was the actual person
>>> to leave.   It could have been someone else, you might have hearing
>>> problems and be hearing things, etc., etc.   So I don't think this
>>> means that we *must* recalculate quorum at ever beep on the call.
>>>
>>>       
>> I agree that your interpretation is valid, albeit focused on the
>> "letter" rather than the "spirit" of this particular passage in RONR.  I
>> believe, however, that this is more about legitimizing work than
>> adhering to rules.
>>
>> IMO, the Chairs metaphorically plugging their ears when they hear a
>> leaving beep (or announcement by someone they're leaving) doesn't fill
>> me with happy feelings of goodness.
>>
>>     
>>> b) The Kantara bylaws actually allow the meeting to proceed without
>>> quorum -- we just have to get our actions approved afterwards.
>>>
>>> Of course, as we've always managed it, any member can call for a 
>>> quorum recalculation... so you or anyone else on the call can make
>>> a motion to revalidate that we have quorum at any point.
>>>
>>>       
>> This is in alignment with RONR (and what I suggested below). 
>> Non-quorate business can continue, but must be re-introduced in the next
>> quorum setting.  In our case, this could also be via email.
>>
>>     
>>> I suggest we continue to operate as we always have.
>>>
>>>       
>> What I believe you're suggesting is: We run meetings as quorate, after
>> quorum has been established, until a failed call for quorum is made
>> (regardless of other observable events).
>>
>> If that's the case, I suggest that the LC make that clear by passing a
>> motion to that effect.  As long as the rules are clear, we'll avoid
>> future ongoing (and possibly endless) interpretive discussions.
>>
>> - Trent
>>
>>     
>>> Conor
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of J. Trent Adams
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:29 PM
>>> To: LC at kantarainitiative.org
>>> Subject: [KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum
>>>
>>>
>>> All -
>>>
>>> I spent some quality time reading Robert's Rules of Order (RONR) over
>>> the holiday (yeah, I have no life).  I'd previously been relying on the
>>> "... in Brief" version, but it was missing some good stuff.
>>>
>>> The reason for this note is to share with WG/DG Chairs something I
>>> uncovered regarding the management of quorum during a meeting.  While
>>> we'd been operating under the assumption that as long as there is quorum
>>> during a roll call, you're good to conduct business even if enough
>>> people leave to drop out of quorum (until another roll call is made).
>>>
>>> Unfortunately... RONR is a bit more strict than that.  Basically, as
>>> soon as the Chair becomes aware (by any means) of someone leaving, they
>>> are obligated to act accordingly.  The allowable actions without quorum
>>> are: to set the date for the next meeting,  recess, take measures to
>>> achieve quorum, and to adjourn.  No other actions are permitted.
>>>
>>> For example, if there are exactly enough people on a teleconference to
>>> make quorum, and the Chair hears a "leaving beep", he/she must take
>>> appropriate action (which means discussion on the open topic can
>>> continue, but no official action taken on it).  The Chair should try to
>>> regain quorum (by pinging members via email/chat/etc.), and adjourn if
>>> unsuccessful.  The folks can continue talking, but any further notes
>>> taken must be clear they've been made after adjourning, and be read into
>>> the minutes of the next quorate call for acceptance.
>>>
>>> It's possible I've missed something (after all, it's a thick tome), so
>>> I've copied the salient text below in case you spot something I didn't.
>>>
>>> Thanks, and happy chairing.
>>>
>>> - Trent
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised
>>> 10th Edition
>>>
>>>
>>> Chapter XI: Quroum; Order of Business and Related Concepts
>>>
>>> SS40. Quorum
>>> p.337.33-p.338.28
>>>
>>>
>>> SUMMARY:
>>> -----
>>> If the chair notices the absence of a quorum, it is his duty to declare
>>> the fact, at least before taking any vote or stating the question on any
>>> new motion... Any member noticing the apparent absence of a quorum can
>>> make a point of order to that effect at any time so long as he does not
>>> interrupt a person who is speaking.
>>> -----
>>>
>>>
>>> Manner of Enforcing the Quorum Requirement
>>>
>>> Before the presiding officer calls a meeting to order, it is his duty to
>>> determine, although he need not announce, that a quorum is present. If a
>>> quorum is not present, the chair waits until there is one, or until,
>>> after a reasonable time, there appears to be no prospect that a quorum
>>> will assemble. If a quorum cannot be obtained, the chair calls the
>>> meeting to order, announces the absence of a quorum, and entertains a
>>> motion to adjourn or one of the other motions allowed, as described above.
>>>
>>> When the chair has called a meeting to order after finding that a quorum
>>> is present, the continued  presence of a quorum is presumed unless the
>>> chair or a member notices that a quorum is no longer present. If the
>>> chair notices the absence of a quorum, it is his duty to declare the
>>> fact, at least before taking any vote or stating the question on any new
>>> motion -- which he can no longer do except in connection with the
>>> permissible proceedings related to the absence of a quorum, as explained
>>> above. Any member noticing the apparent absence of a quorum can make a
>>> point of order to that effect at any time so long as he does not
>>> interrupt a person who is speaking. Debate on a question already pending
>>> can be allowed to continue at length after a quorum is no longer
>>> present, however, until a  member raises the point. Because of the
>>> difficulty likely to be encountered in determining exactly how long the
>>> meeting has been without a quorum in such cases, a point of order
>>> relating to the absence of a quorum is generally not permitted to affect
>>> prior action; but upon clear and convincing proof, such a point of order
>>> can be given effect retrospectively by a ruling of the presiding
>>> officer, subject to appeal (24).*
>>>
>>> *What happens to a question that is pending when a meeting adjourns
>>> (because of the loss of a quorum or for any other reason) is determined
>>> by the rules given on pages 228-29. If such a question, however, was
>>> introduced as new business and it is proven that there was already no
>>> quorum when it was introduced, its introduction was invalid and, to be
>>> considered at a later meeting, it must again be brought up as new business.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> NOTE: The previously referenced allowable actions without quorum are: to
>>> set the date for the next meeting,  recess, take measures to achieve
>>> quorum, and to adjourn.  No other actions are permitted.
>>> -----
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> -- 
>> J. Trent Adams
>> =jtrentadams
>>
>> Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
>> Internet Society
>> http://www.isoc.org
>>
>> e) adams at isoc.org
>> o) 703-439-2149
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LC mailing list
>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc
>>     
>
>   

-- 
J. Trent Adams
=jtrentadams

Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
Internet Society
http://www.isoc.org

e) adams at isoc.org
o) 703-439-2149




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