[KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum
Cahill, Conor P
conor.p.cahill at intel.com
Thu Jan 21 13:28:59 EST 2010
I just don't think that an override is necessary. I think our current
behavioral model with respect to quorum is in line with how all standards
bodies that I've been involved with and is in line with a strict reading
of the current RONR.
In any case, I'll go along with whatever you guys want to do.
From: J. Trent Adams [mailto:adams at isoc.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:08 PM
To: Brett McDowell
Cc: Cahill, Conor P; LC at kantarainitiative.org
Subject: Re: [KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum
Brett McDowell wrote:
> That last point Trent is an interesting one. Remember, RONR only applies for process we don't define ourselves. It fills the gaps. If we have a policy for something, our own policy always takes precedent over RONR.
Yup. That's why I'm not gonna' fall on my sword over it, but rather
allow the LC to define our specific (and over-riding) rules of engagement.
I'm happy to entertain a motion (on this list or a call) to over-ride,
if someone wants to do so.
> On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:00 PM, J. Trent Adams wrote:
>> Conor -
>> Cahill, Conor P wrote:
>>> Two points in response:
>>> a) it's that the chair notices the *change in quorum* not that they
>>> notice something that might possibly indicate a potential change in
>>> quorum. Just because you hear a sound that sounds like somebody
>>> might have left, doesn't actually mean that someone has left or that
>>> one of the members who were part of the quorum was the actual person
>>> to leave. It could have been someone else, you might have hearing
>>> problems and be hearing things, etc., etc. So I don't think this
>>> means that we *must* recalculate quorum at ever beep on the call.
>> I agree that your interpretation is valid, albeit focused on the
>> "letter" rather than the "spirit" of this particular passage in RONR. I
>> believe, however, that this is more about legitimizing work than
>> adhering to rules.
>> IMO, the Chairs metaphorically plugging their ears when they hear a
>> leaving beep (or announcement by someone they're leaving) doesn't fill
>> me with happy feelings of goodness.
>>> b) The Kantara bylaws actually allow the meeting to proceed without
>>> quorum -- we just have to get our actions approved afterwards.
>>> Of course, as we've always managed it, any member can call for a
>>> quorum recalculation... so you or anyone else on the call can make
>>> a motion to revalidate that we have quorum at any point.
>> This is in alignment with RONR (and what I suggested below).
>> Non-quorate business can continue, but must be re-introduced in the next
>> quorum setting. In our case, this could also be via email.
>>> I suggest we continue to operate as we always have.
>> What I believe you're suggesting is: We run meetings as quorate, after
>> quorum has been established, until a failed call for quorum is made
>> (regardless of other observable events).
>> If that's the case, I suggest that the LC make that clear by passing a
>> motion to that effect. As long as the rules are clear, we'll avoid
>> future ongoing (and possibly endless) interpretive discussions.
>> - Trent
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of J. Trent Adams
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:29 PM
>>> To: LC at kantarainitiative.org
>>> Subject: [KI-LC] RONR Rules of Quorum
>>> All -
>>> I spent some quality time reading Robert's Rules of Order (RONR) over
>>> the holiday (yeah, I have no life). I'd previously been relying on the
>>> "... in Brief" version, but it was missing some good stuff.
>>> The reason for this note is to share with WG/DG Chairs something I
>>> uncovered regarding the management of quorum during a meeting. While
>>> we'd been operating under the assumption that as long as there is quorum
>>> during a roll call, you're good to conduct business even if enough
>>> people leave to drop out of quorum (until another roll call is made).
>>> Unfortunately... RONR is a bit more strict than that. Basically, as
>>> soon as the Chair becomes aware (by any means) of someone leaving, they
>>> are obligated to act accordingly. The allowable actions without quorum
>>> are: to set the date for the next meeting, recess, take measures to
>>> achieve quorum, and to adjourn. No other actions are permitted.
>>> For example, if there are exactly enough people on a teleconference to
>>> make quorum, and the Chair hears a "leaving beep", he/she must take
>>> appropriate action (which means discussion on the open topic can
>>> continue, but no official action taken on it). The Chair should try to
>>> regain quorum (by pinging members via email/chat/etc.), and adjourn if
>>> unsuccessful. The folks can continue talking, but any further notes
>>> taken must be clear they've been made after adjourning, and be read into
>>> the minutes of the next quorate call for acceptance.
>>> It's possible I've missed something (after all, it's a thick tome), so
>>> I've copied the salient text below in case you spot something I didn't.
>>> Thanks, and happy chairing.
>>> - Trent
>>> Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised
>>> 10th Edition
>>> Chapter XI: Quroum; Order of Business and Related Concepts
>>> SS40. Quorum
>>> If the chair notices the absence of a quorum, it is his duty to declare
>>> the fact, at least before taking any vote or stating the question on any
>>> new motion... Any member noticing the apparent absence of a quorum can
>>> make a point of order to that effect at any time so long as he does not
>>> interrupt a person who is speaking.
>>> Manner of Enforcing the Quorum Requirement
>>> Before the presiding officer calls a meeting to order, it is his duty to
>>> determine, although he need not announce, that a quorum is present. If a
>>> quorum is not present, the chair waits until there is one, or until,
>>> after a reasonable time, there appears to be no prospect that a quorum
>>> will assemble. If a quorum cannot be obtained, the chair calls the
>>> meeting to order, announces the absence of a quorum, and entertains a
>>> motion to adjourn or one of the other motions allowed, as described above.
>>> When the chair has called a meeting to order after finding that a quorum
>>> is present, the continued presence of a quorum is presumed unless the
>>> chair or a member notices that a quorum is no longer present. If the
>>> chair notices the absence of a quorum, it is his duty to declare the
>>> fact, at least before taking any vote or stating the question on any new
>>> motion -- which he can no longer do except in connection with the
>>> permissible proceedings related to the absence of a quorum, as explained
>>> above. Any member noticing the apparent absence of a quorum can make a
>>> point of order to that effect at any time so long as he does not
>>> interrupt a person who is speaking. Debate on a question already pending
>>> can be allowed to continue at length after a quorum is no longer
>>> present, however, until a member raises the point. Because of the
>>> difficulty likely to be encountered in determining exactly how long the
>>> meeting has been without a quorum in such cases, a point of order
>>> relating to the absence of a quorum is generally not permitted to affect
>>> prior action; but upon clear and convincing proof, such a point of order
>>> can be given effect retrospectively by a ruling of the presiding
>>> officer, subject to appeal (24).*
>>> *What happens to a question that is pending when a meeting adjourns
>>> (because of the loss of a quorum or for any other reason) is determined
>>> by the rules given on pages 228-29. If such a question, however, was
>>> introduced as new business and it is proven that there was already no
>>> quorum when it was introduced, its introduction was invalid and, to be
>>> considered at a later meeting, it must again be brought up as new business.
>>> NOTE: The previously referenced allowable actions without quorum are: to
>>> set the date for the next meeting, recess, take measures to achieve
>>> quorum, and to adjourn. No other actions are permitted.
>> J. Trent Adams
>> Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
>> Internet Society
>> e) adams at isoc.org
>> o) 703-439-2149
>> LC mailing list
>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
J. Trent Adams
Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
e) adams at isoc.org
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