[KI-LC] Fwd: [Staff] UMA F2F before IIW

Cahill, Conor P conor.p.cahill at intel.com
Thu Oct 29 14:55:25 EDT 2009


Joni,

Unless you incorporate the IP into your product, it just doesn't matter.    Even "accepting feedback" could be considered a bit early to start invoking IPR given that if you don't let the feedback impact your product, it doesn't matter anyway, but I guess you need to start somewhere.

Conor

From: lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Joni Brennan
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:26 PM
To: Britta Glade
Cc: LC at kantarainitiative.org Council
Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Fwd: [Staff] UMA F2F before IIW

One part that concerns me is if we want to set a precedent that IP must be accepted to be considered valid.  It might be ok to do so but I"m not sure if it's a precedent we want to set.
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Britta Glade <britta at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:britta at kantarainitiative.org>> wrote:
This is a key question to spinning up some discussion around the guidelines we wanted to develop for how to conduct non-WG meetings that are public (ie. an unconference session specific to one of your topics of interest).  I was thinking we'd covered it pretty well in our LC discussion yesterday, but was looking to create some guidelines that included some scenarios.  I think Eve's very succinct statement that "When a group accepts feedback, that is the point at which IPR must be invoked (and therefore reflected in the minutes with contributing individual noted, who had already completed the GPA in order to be participating in said formal meeting)."

This is where we need some agreement as to what applies to what is being "accepted"--so to below: 1) use cases, 2) scenarios, 3) critique of spec text, 4) revisions, 5) etc?

Thoughts?  This is probably something we need input from counsel on, but I wanted to get some thoughts first.  Thanks.

--b.



On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Eve Maler <eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>> wrote:
This softened version looks great, though it will cause chairs to ask
next: What constitutes a contribution of unlicensed IP?  Would
scenarios and use cases (problem-space descriptions) carry IP, or
not?  I assume critiques of spec text and suggested revisions would.

       Eve

On 29 Oct 2009, at 4:24 AM, Brett McDowell wrote:

> Attached is a redline with some suggested changes that emphasize the
> scenario of letting folks participate in the meeting even without
> signing a GPA.  I do not believe we must require them to either sign
> the GPA or be 100% silent in the meeting.  The only thing we are
> trying to prevent with this process is someone (knowingly or
> unknowingly) "submarining" unlicensed IP into the WG's output.
> There is a lot of opportunity for discussion participation in a
> meeting that doesn't come close to making an IP contribution to a
> work product.  I tried to emphasize that in this revision.
> <Kantara F2F participation policy v2_redline.doc>
> Brett McDowell  |  http://info.brettmcdowell.com<http://info.brettmcdowell.com/>  |  http://KantaraInitiative.org<http://kantarainitiative.org/>
>
> On Oct 28, 2009, at 7:07 PM, J. Trent Adams wrote:
>
>> Eve et al. -
>>
>> Following this thread, I've attached the proposed procedure
>> document for
>> handling events like the UMA meeting before IIW next week.
>>
>> Give it a read and see if you spot any issues needing to be
>> addressed.
>> Otherwise, it'd be great to feed Eve's reaction post-event into it
>> so we
>> can create a process doc for the wiki.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> - Trent
>>
>>
>> Eve Maler wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> *From: *Eve Maler <eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>>
>>>> *Date: *28 October 2009 12:37:18 PM PDT
>>>> *To: *"Dervla O'Reilly" <dervla at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:dervla at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>> <mailto:dervla at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:dervla at kantarainitiative.org>>>
>>>> *Cc: *Kantara Staff list <staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:staff at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>> <mailto:staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:staff at kantarainitiative.org>>>
>>>> *Subject: **Re: [Staff] UMA F2F before IIW*
>>>>
>>>> Great to know!  In case this is of interest as "pre-feedback"
>>>> before
>>>> having seen the written guidance, here is what I've done to
>>>> prepare.
>>>>
>>>> - We're not anticipating a lot of walkups due to the nature,
>>>> timing,
>>>> and location of the meeting.  I'll blog it ahead of time (tomorrow)
>>>> and ask anyone who's thinking of attending to get in touch ASAP.
>>>>
>>>> - I therefore haven't made a sign, but will watch carefully, in my
>>>> chair role, to ensure that I can positively identify every attendee
>>>> and put them into buckets: existing participant, new participant
>>>> who
>>>> has signed in some fashion, or new person who has agreed to
>>>> remain a
>>>> silent observer.
>>>>
>>>> - I doctored the document you sent me with the following
>>>> handwritten
>>>> notations, and will make a few Xerox copies ahead of time:
>>>> . Page 1: I gave it a headline of *IPR "Liberty Option"* and also
>>>> wrote that it *Applies to participation in Kantara User-Managed
>>>> Access WG*
>>>> . Page 5 (last page): I added fields as follows (I still don't like
>>>> "active" vs. "observer" for the voting/non-voting distinction, and
>>>> thus haven't used those words! what would I call true passive
>>>> observers, then?...):
>>>>   - EMAIL FOR LIST SUBSCRIPTION: __________
>>>>   - PARTICIPATION LENGTH: [ ] ONGOING [ ] TODAY ONLY
>>>>   - PARTICIPATION STATUS: [ ] VOTING [ ] NON-VOTING
>>>>
>>>> - I printed out the current KI membership roster to have on hand (I
>>>> don't currently have the names of the primary reps, though)
>>>>
>>>> - Finally, I printed out some supporting materials to have on
>>>> hand in
>>>> case anyone wants chapter and verse:
>>>> . The online "Join This Group" page
>>>> . The charter for the group
>>>> . The IPR Options page
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if I'm missing anything.  Thanks...
>>>>
>>>> Eve
>>>>
>>>> On 27 Oct 2009, at 12:00 PM, Dervla O'Reilly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I sent my guidance draft to Roger and Trent, hope to have that
>>>>> turned around shortly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Dervla
>>>>> ________________________
>>>>> Dervla O'Reilly
>>>>> Event & Membership Manager
>>>>> Kantara Initiative
>>>>> +1 415 731 4487 business
>>>>> +1 415 948 3650 mobile
>>>>> +1 509 757 4487 fax
>>>>> dervla[at]kantarainitiative.org<http://kantarainitiative.org/>
>>>>> http://www.kantarainitiative.org<http://www.kantarainitiative.org/> <http://www.kantarainitiative.org/
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Join the conversation by joining the community@ list
>>>>> - http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to ask Dervla to take the lead on drafting that guidance
>>>>>> page (Dervla, can you take that on before IIW?).  We'll get
>>>>>> review
>>>>>> from Trent and Roger S. (as reps from the "two houses") and then
>>>>>> promote it as "policy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett McDowell | http://info.brettmcdowell.com<http://info.brettmcdowell.com/>
>>>>>> <http://info.brettmcdowell.com/> | http://kantarainitiative.org<http://kantarainitiative.org/>
>>>>>> <http://kantarainitiative.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Eve Maler <eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>
>>>>>> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Good point! It sounds like we have enough material here for a
>>>>>>   guidance page on the wiki. :-) Anyone up for that?... With IIW
>>>>>>   coming and other conferences ahead, ad hoc KI group meetings
>>>>>>   are sure to follow, so guidance would be good to have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Eve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On 23 Oct 2009, at 8:14 AM, Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   And there's one more important point I don't see being
>>>>>>>   discussed... remember in Las Vegas we had those little
>>>>>>>   stickers? (don't worry, I'm not suggesting stickers)  I want
>>>>>>>   to remind everyone why we had the stickers.  It was so the
>>>>>>>   Chair knew who was in the room who HAD NOT SIGNED any GPA or
>>>>>>>   IPR agreement.  In other words, it's TOTALLY FINE to have
>>>>>>>   folks in the meeting who have signed nothing.  The only caveat
>>>>>>>   is the Chair needs to be mindful of those folks and exercise
>>>>>>>   their professional judgement to disallow them from
>>>>>>>   contributing what would be un-licensed (and perhaps
>>>>>>>   un-licensable) IPR into the groups' output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   P.S.
>>>>>>>   If you get attendees who are not members I would also like to
>>>>>>>   know so I can follow-up with them and start a recruiting
>>>>>>>   effort to bring them onboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Cheers!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Brett McDowell | http://info.brettmcdowell.com<http://info.brettmcdowell.com/>
>>>>>>>   <http://info.brettmcdowell.com/> |
>>>>>>>   http://kantarainitiative.org<http://kantarainitiative.org/> <http://kantarainitiative.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Eve Maler <eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>
>>>>>>>   <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Thanks! In this case, maybe that list of primary members
>>>>>>>       would be helpful, just in case. But honestly, I don't
>>>>>>>       anticipate a lot of walkups since the IIW conference isn't
>>>>>>>       going on that day. (I'll get the word out to the community
>>>>>>>       that contacting me first is a good idea for new people.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Eve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       On 22 Oct 2009, at 6:41 PM, Joni Brennan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Eve Maler
>>>>>>>>       <eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           Ah, this document is just the "Option Liberty" text,
>>>>>>>>           is that right?
>>>>>>>>           Cool.  And I assume I can also mark on the form (or
>>>>>>>>           simply ask them)
>>>>>>>>           whether they want to be a voting ("active") or
>>>>>>>>           non-voting ("observer")
>>>>>>>>           participant going forward?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       That's not on the form Derv sent so yes you can ask them
>>>>>>>>       and mark it down.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           If anyone whose company is a KI member but isn't yet
>>>>>>>>           a participant
>>>>>>>>           shows up, do I have to actually call their primary
>>>>>>>>           member person
>>>>>>>>           before I can let them in?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       Even if their company is a KI member and even if they are
>>>>>>>>       already in other groups we need the primary authority for
>>>>>>>>       any new group joined.  Yes, and they should be able to
>>>>>>>>       make that call for you - while you are with them I
>>>>>>>>       suppose.  That's how we did a few in LV.  If you know of
>>>>>>>>       any ahead of time that will help so maybe Dervla can
>>>>>>>>       reach out to them before the event.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       PS - we also used some judgement like for Gael who could
>>>>>>>>       not reach Aude in France.  We let him sign and got the
>>>>>>>>       approval afterward.  It's most important that they sign
>>>>>>>>       if they want to join the group or if they want to
>>>>>>>>       contribute IP.  If they just want to be in the room I
>>>>>>>>       would not force signing upon them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       If they are not members of KI already then they can self
>>>>>>>>       assert their own authority to sign.  I know this is going
>>>>>>>>       to be a great event for you guys =).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       thx!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           Thanks...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  Eve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           On 22 Oct 2009, at 4:23 PM, Dervla O'Reilly wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eve,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Great stuff!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can make note of the attendance and share
>>>>>>>>           with me, that would
>>>>>>>>> be terrific.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Newcomers who have not already signed the GPA and
>>>>>>>>           are not members
>>>>>>>>> will need to sign the attached file.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see you have a potential attendees list.  For
>>>>>>>>           those newcomers to
>>>>>>>>> your group who are already members, you will need
>>>>>>>>           to reach the
>>>>>>>>> primary contact of that member company.  I can send
>>>>>>>>           you the primary
>>>>>>>>> member list if you wish.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, I think we're good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Dervla
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>> <KANTARA INITIATIVE IPR>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You'll probably want to have reference to the
>>>>>>>>           primary contact
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Eve Maler wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks-- My UMA group is planning to hold a F2F
>>>>>>>>           meeting at the
>>>>>>>>>> Computer History Museum on Monday afternoon, 2 Nov
>>>>>>>>           2009; the IIW
>>>>>>>>>> organizers kindly agreed we could meet on-site
>>>>>>>>           that day.  I'm
>>>>>>>>>> prepared
>>>>>>>>>> to provide a sign and a signup sheet to manage the
>>>>>>>>           group
>>>>>>>>>> participation
>>>>>>>>>> agreement aspects.  Is there anything else I need
>>>>>>>>           to do?  Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Eve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eve Maler
>>>>>>>>>> eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Staff mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>>>>           <mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/staff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           Eve Maler
>>>>>>>>           eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>>>>>>>           http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>           Staff mailing list
>>>>>>>>           Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>>>>           <mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>>
>>>>>>>>           http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/staff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       --
>>>>>>>>       Joni Brennan
>>>>>>>>       IEEE-ISTO
>>>>>>>>       Kantara Initiative
>>>>>>>>       Director of Technology Programs
>>>>>>>>       voice:+1 732-226-4223
>>>>>>>>       email: joni @ ieee-isto.org<http://ieee-isto.org/> <http://ieee-isto.org/>
>>>>>>>>       gtalk: jonibrennan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       Join the conversation on the community@ list -
>>>>>>>>       http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Eve Maler
>>>>>>>       eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>>>>>>       http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>       Staff mailing list
>>>>>>>       Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>>>       <mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:Staff at kantarainitiative.org>>
>>>>>>>       http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/staff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Eve Maler
>>>>>>   eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>>>>>   http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eve Maler
>>>> eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>>> http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eve Maler
>>> eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com> <mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>>
>>> http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LC mailing list
>>> LC at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:LC at kantarainitiative.org>
>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc
>>>
>>
>> --
>> J. Trent Adams
>> =jtrentadams
>>
>> Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
>> Internet Society
>> http://www.isoc.org<http://www.isoc.org/>
>>
>> e) adams at isoc.org<mailto:adams at isoc.org>
>> o) 703-439-2149
>>
>>
>> <Kantara Initiative Join Meeting Process at
>> events.doc>_______________________________________________
>> LC mailing list
>> LC at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:LC at kantarainitiative.org>
>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc
>

Eve Maler
eve at xmlgrrl.com<mailto:eve at xmlgrrl.com>
http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog

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Britta Glade Kantara Initiative 925-254-4233

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--
Joni Brennan
IEEE-ISTO
Kantara Initiative
Director of Technology Programs
voice:+1 732-226-4223
email: joni @ ieee-isto.org<http://ieee-isto.org>
gtalk: jonibrennan

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