[KI-LC] [BoT] Revised DRAFT: Policy for Joining Groups and Group Discussion Lists

Roger Martin roger.martin at corp.aol.com
Tue Jul 7 08:19:55 PDT 2009


OK.  you are correct...I did reverse them.  It should be /"Moderate: the 
same as "Administer"
with the exception that *a Moderator* cannot change List configuration 
variables."


/configuration variable."

J. Trent Adams wrote:
> Roger -
>
> Thanks for the quick turn-around.
>
> One nit in-line below.  Otherwise I'm good to go.
>
> - Trent
>
>
> Roger Martin wrote:
>   
>> Trent,
>>
>> see inline below.
>>
>>    ....RogerM
>>
>> J. Trent Adams wrote:
>>     
>>> Roger -
>>>
>>> In order to present the policy to the LC for approval on Wednesday's
>>> call, I'm proof-reading the version on the wiki, and making sure it
>>> closed the open issues from the threads:
>>>
>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/BACh
>>>
>>> Assuming that this is the most up-to-date version (so we can simply
>>> point everyone at it rather than continuing to circulate docs), I do
>>> have a couple last-minute comments:
>>>   
>>>       
>> [RM]  Yes,  http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/BACh is the most
>> recent, up-to-date version.
>>
>>     
>>>  1. It looks like the term "Contributor" still shows up
>>>      in the second bullet of Section 4:
>>>
>>>      "Anyone may Subscribe to any List with the
>>>      provision that only Contributors may post to
>>>      the List."
>>>
>>>      Am I right in assuming that this should be
>>>      updated to read:
>>>
>>>      "Anyone may Subscribe to any List with the
>>>      provision that only Participants of the Group
>>>      may post to the List."
>>>   
>>>       
>> [RM]  Yes, it should be "Participants".  I had that change in the
>> Word/PDF version but missed it when I updated the Wiki version. 
>> Thanks for catching it.
>>
>>     
>>>  2. As there is now a distinction between "administer"
>>>      and "moderate" called out in Section 5, can we
>>>      add the definitions for each that are based on what
>>>      Brett pulled from the mail software?  Here are my
>>>      suggestions:
>>>   
>>>       
>> [RM]  I don't see the necessity of adding definitions for "administer"
>> and "moderate" but have no objection to doing do.
>>  
>>  Would it be correct to define "Moderate: the same as "Administer"
>> with the exception that an Administrator cannot change List
>> configuration variable."  (I am assuming that is correct.  Is it?)
>>     
>
> I think you've got 'em reversed, but essentially correct. "Administer"
> includes list config rights, while "Moderate" does not.
>
>   
>>>      "Administer: Full control of the Group List
>>>      functionality /such as changing List configuration
>>>      variables, tend to pending requests, including the
>>>      approval or rejection of held subscription requests,
>>>      and disposing of held postings, etc."/
>>>
>>>      "Moderate: Limited control of the Group List
>>>      functionality /such as tending to pending requests,
>>>      including the approval or rejection of held
>>>      subscription requests, and disposing of held
>>>      postings, etc./ Changing List configuration variables
>>>      are not included."
>>>
>>>  3. Finally, how would you suggest addressing the issue
>>>      that Lucy raised:
>>>
>>>      "with this caveat, list administrators can and should
>>>      forward on the the list any announcements that would
>>>      be on interest. This should clearly be a forward (over
>>>      the admin's email address) and not an approved
>>>      posting over the original address."
>>>
>>>      I'm assuming that what she's talking about is the
>>>      forwarding of publicly-available information, and
>>>      thus isn't encumbered by some other IPR regime.
>>>      In this case, does this need to be called out in the
>>>      policy, or is it blatantly obvious this is OK to do?
>>>   
>>>       
>> [RM]  I don't think this needs to be included in the "Policy for
>> Joining Groups and Group Discussion Lists."  It is, however, useful
>> operating guidance that perhaps could be articulated elsewhere.
>>
>>     
>>> Looking forward to resolution.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Trent
>>>     
>>>
>>> Roger Martin wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> I don't believe that additional text is necessary since the Chair can
>>>> normally delegate any duty. 
>>>>
>>>> However, if you think it should be there, go ahead and add it to the
>>>> wiki text.
>>>>
>>>>    ..rogerM
>>>>
>>>> Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> How about we add a parenthetical modifier to your proposed text so it
>>>>> reads "moderated by the Chair of the Group (or his/her delegate)" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Roger Martin<roger.martin at corp.aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Based on this discussion it appears we have agreed to the following changes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reword the first bullet in Section (5) to read:
>>>>>> * All Lists are administered by Staff and moderated by the secretary Chair
>>>>>> of the Group to which the List is associated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Delete the sixth bullet in section (5)
>>>>>> * Group Lists are not moderated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have made these (and my original rewrite) changes to the wiki:
>>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/display/LC/Groups+Email+Discussion+List+Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    ...rogerM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I'd add to that... if someone attempts to post to the list and the
>>>>>> topic is appropriate/legitimate, I would hope/encourage the Chair to
>>>>>> forward it to community@ for a "real" discussion (not to mention
>>>>>> reaching out to that person and suggesting they actually join the
>>>>>> Group).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Lucy Lynch<lynch at isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with this caveat, list administrators can and should forward
>>>>>> on the the list any announcements that would be on interest.
>>>>>> This should clearly be a forward (over the admin's email address)
>>>>>> and not an approved posting over the original address.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lucy Lynch
>>>>>> Director, Trust and Identity Initiatives
>>>>>> Internet Society (ISOC )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given all the issues I've noticed being raised in the development of this
>>>>>> policy, it's probably best to simply not allow any posting to the lists
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> non-participants in the group.
>>>>>> How do folks feel about tightening this up to that level?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Joni Brennan <joni at ieee-isto.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Brett.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe it would benefit us to develop operational policies (similar to
>>>>>> what the LC has done) to explain the implications and responsibilities
>>>>>> associated with the WG/DG Roles.  This policy would answer questions like
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> When can I 'accept' a rejected message'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, as there is no DG Secretary role this item would fall under the DG
>>>>>> Vice-chair or Chair responsibilties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, we should consider putting a requested change in the LC queue to
>>>>>> update the Operating Procedures to reflect this item under the
>>>>>> appropriate
>>>>>> role duties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joni
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Brett McDowell
>>>>>> <email at brettmcdowell.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is what the MailMan software documentation says in this regard:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *There are two ownership roles associated with each mailing list. The
>>>>>> **list
>>>>>> administrators** are the people who have ultimate control over all
>>>>>> parameters of this mailing list. They are able to change any list
>>>>>> configuration variable available through these administration web
>>>>>> pages.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The **list moderators** have more limited permissions; they are not
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed to tend
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> pending administration requests, including approving or rejecting held
>>>>>> subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of course, the
>>>>>> **list
>>>>>> administrators** can also tend to pending requests.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Roger Martin
>>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I'm out of my field when it comes to mail list administration and
>>>>>> standard terminology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would anyone on this thread care to enlighten me (us).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do we need to define those terms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    ....roger M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J. Trent Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In order to avoid any misunderstandings, would it make sense to define
>>>>>> "Moderate" and "Administer"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Trent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Martin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Joni,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a conversation with Brett about this issue because I was not
>>>>>> understanding the motivations for proposing this change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on that discussion, I understand the motivation for this change
>>>>>> to be that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    * Staff will administer all Lists, but there is a valid concern
>>>>>>      that a requirement to have Staff moderate all Lists will be a
>>>>>>      significant burden on Staff resources.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    * We can configure each List so any email received from a
>>>>>>      non-Participant gets an auto-reply that says "You do not have
>>>>>>      permission to post to this List.  To do so, you must sign the
>>>>>>      Participation Agreement for this Group." (or something similar)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    * It may be helpful for the leadership of a Group to know (1) who
>>>>>>      joins and who leaves a list as an Observer, and (2) who attempts
>>>>>>      to post as an Observer.  As a result, you proposed that a member
>>>>>>      of the Group Leadership (Group secretary) be assigned moderator
>>>>>>      status in order to be able to track this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Under the Kantara Initiative Bylaws, a Group is not required to have a
>>>>>> secretary.  However, the Bylaws do state that when "a WG does not have
>>>>>> a secretary it is the responsibility of the Chair to ensure that those
>>>>>> duties."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the above, I believe the following changes will be sufficient to
>>>>>> achieve what you are proposing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   1. Reword the first bullet in Section (5) to read:
>>>>>>      * All Lists are administered by Staff and moderated by the
>>>>>>      secretary of the Group to which the List is associated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   2. Delete the sixth bullet in section (5)
>>>>>>      * Group Lists are not moderated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   ...rogerM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joni Brennan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hi Roger,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have drafted the suggested addition below:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 5
>>>>>> * All Lists are administered and moderated by the Staff.  In addition
>>>>>> to the Staff moderator, each list will be moderated by the Secretary
>>>>>> officer responsible for that list's associated group.  The Secretary
>>>>>> moderator function provides an additional layer of operational
>>>>>> information to the officers of each group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please feel free to word smith my suggestion as you may see fit.
>>>>>> Also, as an FYI to the group, we did find the bug causing Rogers edit
>>>>>> access woes and have resolved the issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joni
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Roger Martin
>>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com <mailto:roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I have attached the revised draft of the "Policy for Joining
>>>>>>    Groups and Group Discussion Lists" based on the discussions of
>>>>>>    the past two days.  I still don't have edit permission on the
>>>>>>    wiki page, but will post the new draft there when I do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Additional Discussion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    1.  Joni posted a proposal to one officer from each WG and DG a a
>>>>>>    moderator of any Lists associated with that WG or DG.  It's not
>>>>>>    clear from the email discussion what the resolution of this
>>>>>>    proposal is.  As a result I did not make any changes to the
>>>>>>    text.  If we need to make that change, would someone please post
>>>>>>    the specific text changes to be made?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    2.  Are there any further edits needed before we move to adopt
>>>>>>    this as a Kantara Initiative policy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       ...rogerM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    /--
>>>>>>    ******************************************
>>>>>>    Roger Martin, Director of Standards
>>>>>>         AOL
>>>>>>         22260 Pacific Blvd    41A:A03
>>>>>>         Dulles, VA 20166
>>>>>>    email: roger.martin at corp.aol.com <mailto:roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>>>             AIM:       rjmartin99
>>>>>>             phone:  703-265-6203
>>>>>>             mobile: 703-389-1547
>>>>>>    *******************************************/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>    Trustees mailing list
>>>>>>    Trustees at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>>    <mailto:Trustees at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>> <Trustees at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/trustees_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joni Brennan
>>>>>> IEEE-ISTO
>>>>>> Liberty Alliance Project
>>>>>> Director of Operations
>>>>>> voice:+1 732-226-4223
>>>>>> email: joni @ projectliberty.org <http://projectliberty.org>
>>>>>> <http://projectliberty.org>
>>>>>> email: joni @ ieee-isto.org <http://ieee-isto.org>
>>>>>> <http://ieee-isto.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> LC mailing
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joni Brennan
>>>>>> IEEE-ISTO
>>>>>> Liberty Alliance Project
>>>>>> Director of Operations
>>>>>> voice:+1 732-226-4223
>>>>>> email: joni @ projectliberty.org
>>>>>> email: joni @ ieee-isto.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Trustees mailing list
>>>>>> Trustees at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/trustees_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> LC mailing list
>>>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>   
>>>       
>
>   
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