[KI-LC] [BoT] Revised DRAFT: Policy for Joining Groups and Group Discussion Lists

J. Trent Adams adams at isoc.org
Tue Jul 7 08:11:36 PDT 2009


Roger -

Thanks for the quick turn-around.

One nit in-line below.  Otherwise I'm good to go.

- Trent


Roger Martin wrote:
> Trent,
>
> see inline below.
>
>    ....RogerM
>
> J. Trent Adams wrote:
>> Roger -
>>
>> In order to present the policy to the LC for approval on Wednesday's
>> call, I'm proof-reading the version on the wiki, and making sure it
>> closed the open issues from the threads:
>>
>> http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/BACh
>>
>> Assuming that this is the most up-to-date version (so we can simply
>> point everyone at it rather than continuing to circulate docs), I do
>> have a couple last-minute comments:
>>   
> [RM]  Yes,  http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/BACh is the most
> recent, up-to-date version.
>
>>  1. It looks like the term "Contributor" still shows up
>>      in the second bullet of Section 4:
>>
>>      "Anyone may Subscribe to any List with the
>>      provision that only Contributors may post to
>>      the List."
>>
>>      Am I right in assuming that this should be
>>      updated to read:
>>
>>      "Anyone may Subscribe to any List with the
>>      provision that only Participants of the Group
>>      may post to the List."
>>   
> [RM]  Yes, it should be "Participants".  I had that change in the
> Word/PDF version but missed it when I updated the Wiki version. 
> Thanks for catching it.
>
>>  2. As there is now a distinction between "administer"
>>      and "moderate" called out in Section 5, can we
>>      add the definitions for each that are based on what
>>      Brett pulled from the mail software?  Here are my
>>      suggestions:
>>   
> [RM]  I don't see the necessity of adding definitions for "administer"
> and "moderate" but have no objection to doing do.
>  
>  Would it be correct to define "Moderate: the same as "Administer"
> with the exception that an Administrator cannot change List
> configuration variable."  (I am assuming that is correct.  Is it?)

I think you've got 'em reversed, but essentially correct. "Administer"
includes list config rights, while "Moderate" does not.

>>      "Administer: Full control of the Group List
>>      functionality /such as changing List configuration
>>      variables, tend to pending requests, including the
>>      approval or rejection of held subscription requests,
>>      and disposing of held postings, etc."/
>>
>>      "Moderate: Limited control of the Group List
>>      functionality /such as tending to pending requests,
>>      including the approval or rejection of held
>>      subscription requests, and disposing of held
>>      postings, etc./ Changing List configuration variables
>>      are not included."
>>
>>  3. Finally, how would you suggest addressing the issue
>>      that Lucy raised:
>>
>>      "with this caveat, list administrators can and should
>>      forward on the the list any announcements that would
>>      be on interest. This should clearly be a forward (over
>>      the admin's email address) and not an approved
>>      posting over the original address."
>>
>>      I'm assuming that what she's talking about is the
>>      forwarding of publicly-available information, and
>>      thus isn't encumbered by some other IPR regime.
>>      In this case, does this need to be called out in the
>>      policy, or is it blatantly obvious this is OK to do?
>>   
> [RM]  I don't think this needs to be included in the "Policy for
> Joining Groups and Group Discussion Lists."  It is, however, useful
> operating guidance that perhaps could be articulated elsewhere.
>
>> Looking forward to resolution.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Trent
>>     
>>
>> Roger Martin wrote:
>>   
>>> I don't believe that additional text is necessary since the Chair can
>>> normally delegate any duty. 
>>>
>>> However, if you think it should be there, go ahead and add it to the
>>> wiki text.
>>>
>>>    ..rogerM
>>>
>>> Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>     
>>>> How about we add a parenthetical modifier to your proposed text so it
>>>> reads "moderated by the Chair of the Group (or his/her delegate)" ?
>>>>
>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Roger Martin<roger.martin at corp.aol.com> wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Based on this discussion it appears we have agreed to the following changes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Reword the first bullet in Section (5) to read:
>>>>> * All Lists are administered by Staff and moderated by the secretary Chair
>>>>> of the Group to which the List is associated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Delete the sixth bullet in section (5)
>>>>> * Group Lists are not moderated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have made these (and my original rewrite) changes to the wiki:
>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/display/LC/Groups+Email+Discussion+List+Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>    ...rogerM
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> And I'd add to that... if someone attempts to post to the list and the
>>>>> topic is appropriate/legitimate, I would hope/encourage the Chair to
>>>>> forward it to community@ for a "real" discussion (not to mention
>>>>> reaching out to that person and suggesting they actually join the
>>>>> Group).
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Lucy Lynch<lynch at isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 ,
>>>>>
>>>>> with this caveat, list administrators can and should forward
>>>>> on the the list any announcements that would be on interest.
>>>>> This should clearly be a forward (over the admin's email address)
>>>>> and not an approved posting over the original address.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lucy Lynch
>>>>> Director, Trust and Identity Initiatives
>>>>> Internet Society (ISOC )
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Brett McDowell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given all the issues I've noticed being raised in the development of this
>>>>> policy, it's probably best to simply not allow any posting to the lists
>>>>> from
>>>>> non-participants in the group.
>>>>> How do folks feel about tightening this up to that level?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Joni Brennan <joni at ieee-isto.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Brett.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe it would benefit us to develop operational policies (similar to
>>>>> what the LC has done) to explain the implications and responsibilities
>>>>> associated with the WG/DG Roles.  This policy would answer questions like
>>>>> -
>>>>> When can I 'accept' a rejected message'?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, as there is no DG Secretary role this item would fall under the DG
>>>>> Vice-chair or Chair responsibilties.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, we should consider putting a requested change in the LC queue to
>>>>> update the Operating Procedures to reflect this item under the
>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> role duties.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Joni
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Brett McDowell
>>>>> <email at brettmcdowell.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is what the MailMan software documentation says in this regard:
>>>>>
>>>>> *There are two ownership roles associated with each mailing list. The
>>>>> **list
>>>>> administrators** are the people who have ultimate control over all
>>>>> parameters of this mailing list. They are able to change any list
>>>>> configuration variable available through these administration web
>>>>> pages.*
>>>>>
>>>>> *The **list moderators** have more limited permissions; they are not
>>>>> able
>>>>> to change any list configuration variable, but they are allowed to tend
>>>>> to
>>>>> pending administration requests, including approving or rejecting held
>>>>> subscription requests, and disposing of held postings. Of course, the
>>>>> **list
>>>>> administrators** can also tend to pending requests.*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brett McDowell | +1.413.652.1248 | http://info.brettmcdowell.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Roger Martin
>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'm out of my field when it comes to mail list administration and
>>>>> standard terminology
>>>>>
>>>>> Would anyone on this thread care to enlighten me (us).
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we need to define those terms?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    ....roger M
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J. Trent Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger -
>>>>>
>>>>> In order to avoid any misunderstandings, would it make sense to define
>>>>> "Moderate" and "Administer"?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Trent
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Martin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Joni,
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a conversation with Brett about this issue because I was not
>>>>> understanding the motivations for proposing this change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on that discussion, I understand the motivation for this change
>>>>> to be that:
>>>>>
>>>>>    * Staff will administer all Lists, but there is a valid concern
>>>>>      that a requirement to have Staff moderate all Lists will be a
>>>>>      significant burden on Staff resources.
>>>>>
>>>>>    * We can configure each List so any email received from a
>>>>>      non-Participant gets an auto-reply that says "You do not have
>>>>>      permission to post to this List.  To do so, you must sign the
>>>>>      Participation Agreement for this Group." (or something similar)
>>>>>
>>>>>    * It may be helpful for the leadership of a Group to know (1) who
>>>>>      joins and who leaves a list as an Observer, and (2) who attempts
>>>>>      to post as an Observer.  As a result, you proposed that a member
>>>>>      of the Group Leadership (Group secretary) be assigned moderator
>>>>>      status in order to be able to track this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Under the Kantara Initiative Bylaws, a Group is not required to have a
>>>>> secretary.  However, the Bylaws do state that when "a WG does not have
>>>>> a secretary it is the responsibility of the Chair to ensure that those
>>>>> duties."
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the above, I believe the following changes will be sufficient to
>>>>> achieve what you are proposing:
>>>>>
>>>>>   1. Reword the first bullet in Section (5) to read:
>>>>>      * All Lists are administered by Staff and moderated by the
>>>>>      secretary of the Group to which the List is associated.
>>>>>
>>>>>   2. Delete the sixth bullet in section (5)
>>>>>      * Group Lists are not moderated.
>>>>>
>>>>>   ...rogerM
>>>>>
>>>>> Joni Brennan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Hi Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have drafted the suggested addition below:
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 5
>>>>> * All Lists are administered and moderated by the Staff.  In addition
>>>>> to the Staff moderator, each list will be moderated by the Secretary
>>>>> officer responsible for that list's associated group.  The Secretary
>>>>> moderator function provides an additional layer of operational
>>>>> information to the officers of each group.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please feel free to word smith my suggestion as you may see fit.
>>>>> Also, as an FYI to the group, we did find the bug causing Rogers edit
>>>>> access woes and have resolved the issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Joni
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Roger Martin
>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com <mailto:roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>    I have attached the revised draft of the "Policy for Joining
>>>>>    Groups and Group Discussion Lists" based on the discussions of
>>>>>    the past two days.  I still don't have edit permission on the
>>>>>    wiki page, but will post the new draft there when I do.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Additional Discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>>    1.  Joni posted a proposal to one officer from each WG and DG a a
>>>>>    moderator of any Lists associated with that WG or DG.  It's not
>>>>>    clear from the email discussion what the resolution of this
>>>>>    proposal is.  As a result I did not make any changes to the
>>>>>    text.  If we need to make that change, would someone please post
>>>>>    the specific text changes to be made?
>>>>>
>>>>>    2.  Are there any further edits needed before we move to adopt
>>>>>    this as a Kantara Initiative policy?
>>>>>
>>>>>       ...rogerM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    /--
>>>>>    ******************************************
>>>>>    Roger Martin, Director of Standards
>>>>>         AOL
>>>>>         22260 Pacific Blvd    41A:A03
>>>>>         Dulles, VA 20166
>>>>>    email: roger.martin at corp.aol.com <mailto:roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>> <roger.martin at corp.aol.com>
>>>>>             AIM:       rjmartin99
>>>>>             phone:  703-265-6203
>>>>>             mobile: 703-389-1547
>>>>>    *******************************************/
>>>>>
>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>    Trustees mailing list
>>>>>    Trustees at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>    <mailto:Trustees at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>> <Trustees at kantarainitiative.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/trustees_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joni Brennan
>>>>> IEEE-ISTO
>>>>> Liberty Alliance Project
>>>>> Director of Operations
>>>>> voice:+1 732-226-4223
>>>>> email: joni @ projectliberty.org <http://projectliberty.org>
>>>>> <http://projectliberty.org>
>>>>> email: joni @ ieee-isto.org <http://ieee-isto.org>
>>>>> <http://ieee-isto.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> LC mailing
>>>>> listLC at kantarainitiative.orghttp://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Trustees mailing list
>>>>> Trustees at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/trustees_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> LC mailing list
>>>>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joni Brennan
>>>>> IEEE-ISTO
>>>>> Liberty Alliance Project
>>>>> Director of Operations
>>>>> voice:+1 732-226-4223
>>>>> email: joni @ projectliberty.org
>>>>> email: joni @ ieee-isto.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Trustees mailing list
>>>>> Trustees at kantarainitiative.org
>>>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/trustees_kantarainitiative.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LC mailing list
>>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
>>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc_kantarainitiative.org
>>>   
>>>     
>>
>>   

-- 
J. Trent Adams
=jtrentadams

Outreach Specialist, Trust & Identity
Internet Society
http://www.isoc.org

e) adams at isoc.org
o) 703-439-2149





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