[KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion

[Cahill, Conor P]

I'm getting confused here.... In your previous email you said the issue
was with the recipient of the funds.   Now you're saying it's with the
contributor of the funds?

Is this your final answer now?

I do *know* of several cases where sponsors *have* sponsored work within
a working group by paying for someone to do the work on their behalf.  There
are many reasons for a sponsor to want to do things this way, the biggest
being they get to ensure that their concerns are at least raised, if not
addressed by the work of the WG.

When I was a consultant, I had no problems taking money from people to
do work for them (though that usually also brought along the baggage of
me telling them what the "right" work that should be done was :-)).

As far as workshops are concerned, Kantara already supports the model you're
describing.  For example, the RSA workshop is a workshop that is organized
by Kantara, but funded (at least partially) by sponsors.   That kind of a
think is directly in line with what Kantara does (the administrative assistance
for organizing a workshop).

Conor

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Andrieu [mailto:joe at switchbook.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:12 AM
To: Cahill, Conor P
Cc: Bob Pinheiro; lc at kantarainitiative.org
Subject: Re: [KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion

Conor,

Why would a sponsor give money directly to any individual when what they
want to do is sponsor a work group or a work group activity?

I'm certainly not going to take money personally for work that my group
or someone in my group wants to do. Nor do I want a sponsor to have to
make an independent evaluation of the potential multiple contracts that
may be involved in various parties contributing to a funded project.

For example, if we wanted to run a workshop that Kantara, as an
organization, didn't have the resources to facilitate, I'd like to raise
sponsorship dollars to fund it.  The sponsor doesn't want to negotiate
terms, sign contracts, manage, and directly pay the caterer, the
facility, the conference planner, the DJ, the AV team, etc.  They want
to write a reasonable check and be done with it. That check should go to
Kantara to be spent at the discretion of the work group.

The same issues don't come up because they are backstopped by a trusted
entity, the organization. Rather than giving directly to volunteers at a
church, one gives to the church. Rather than giving directly to a
particular volunteer at the Red Cross, one gives to the Red Cross
directly. And as the volunteer, I don't have to deal with accounting for
the income, dealing with fiscal liability, or potential accusations of
inappropriate use of funds, because I too am benefiting from a trusted
organization to organize the activity.  That's what organizations do.

There must be something I'm missing in your objection, Conor.  Could you
unpack that a bit more for us?

-j

On 2/4/2010 7:53 AM, Cahill, Conor P wrote:
 > So, you're saying that a consultant (the potential recipient of funds for
 > work being performed) is worried about accepting funds from a company
 > because of the liability, disputes, payments, invoicing, etc. and
 > somehow, when you place Kantara in the loop these concerns go away?
 >
 > How exactly does that happen?  Why don't these same issues with respect
 > to liability, disputes, payments, invoicing, etc. now occur twice: once
 > between Kantara and the contributor and once between consultant and
 > Kantara?
 >
 > Conor
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Joe Andrieu [mailto:joe at switchbook.com]
 > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:28 AM
 > To: Cahill, Conor P
 > Cc: Bob Pinheiro; lc at kantarainitiative.org
 > Subject: Re: [KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion
 >
 > Sorry, Conor. I guess that got buried in my reply.
 >
 > Direct contributions from a sponsor to an individual create a mess of
 > liability and operational issues for the recipient: contracts,
 > invoicing, payments, distributions, disputes, IP issues. These issues
 > also create potential headache for the sponsor, who has to make a
 > judgment call about the individuals' ability to handle the overhead and
 > the financial controls in place to assure the funds go to the proposed
 > activity.  All of these things can and do prevent individuals from
 > taking funds for volunteer work that will largely be done by other
people.
 >
 > This is one of the fundamental reasons individuals form organizations in
 > the first place. And why I would expect it to be a no brainer for
 > Kantara to take care of it.
 >
 > -j
 >
 >
 > On 2/4/2010 5:03 AM, Cahill, Conor P wrote:
 >> Joe,
 >>
 >> You don't appear to respond to my question:   What is the
justification in
 >> support of requiring the funds to go through Kantara vs the outside
funding organization funding the work directly?
 >>
 >> If Company X wants to pay for some work, they can pay for the work
directly.
 >> If Company X wants to find someone else to pay them to do the work,
they can do that directly as well.
 >>
 >> Why does Company X want to pay Kantara to pay for some work indirectly?
 >>
 >> Conor
 >>
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Joe Andrieu [mailto:joe at switchbook.com]
 >> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:32 AM
 >> To: Cahill, Conor P
 >> Cc: Bob Pinheiro; lc at kantarainitiative.org
 >> Subject: Re: [KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion
 >>
 >> Conor,
 >>
 >> The reason to work with Kantara as a "middle man", as you put it, is
 >> precisely because Kantara is the organization within which the group has
 >> chosen to coordinate their efforts.
 >>
 >> If Kantara can't provide this kind of support, then I will have to
 >> revisit my understanding of the value Kantara brings to independent
 >> projects looking for organizational infrastructure.
 >>
 >> The point isn't that work groups are coming to Kantara to get funding.
 >> It's that groups doing interesting work often need an organization to
 >> help deal with IPR, liability, and operational support.  Once that group
 >> decides an organization is a good thing, they either have to create
 >> their own or join one. I was quite explicitly told that Kantara's
 >> mission is to be precisely the sort of "umbrella" organization for
 >> supporting collaborative work by largely independent teams of
 >> volunteers. If Kantara can't provide the liability and treasury related
 >> functions to support alternative sources of funding, it would be a
 >> significant breakdown in communication and an undermining of the reason
 >> I supported bringing my own work here.
 >>
 >> I agree with you that Kantara is not the place people should come
 >> looking for handouts. Indeed, work groups should not /expect/ funding.
 >> And when they don't get funding from for what they want to do, it is
 >> entirely appropriate that they find other ways to get that funding, if
 >> they have the will and resources to do so.
 >>
 >> Ironically, if a work group is not allowed to bring in outside funding,
 >> then the only option you've left them is to ask for handouts.  A cynic
 >> would say that this is precisely the power dynamic that the BoT would
 >> prefer. I'm not that cynical, but I do know that this is one reason many
 >> people questioned the decision making structure at the formation of the
 >> organization.
 >>
 >> -j
 >>
 >> On 2/4/2010 3:50 AM, Cahill, Conor P wrote:
 >>> I know what you're saying.  I'm saying that Kantara shouldn't be in the
 >>> business of funding workgroup projects. Kantara is in the business of
 >>> bringing people together who want to **WORK** on common interest
 >>> projects. It's not a place for someone to say "hey, I've got an idea,
 >>> let me see if I can get the organization to fund it for me."
 >>>
 >>> Any direct funding of work by Kantara should be the **exception**
to the
 >>> rule rather than the rule.
 >>>
 >>> If a WG or a member of a WG wants to get some other organization to
fund
 >>> their work within the WG, they can do so as a direct relationship
 >>> without involving Kantara. This has been done in the past in many
 >>> standards bodies including Liberty and I presume Kantara. So if I
 >>> wanted, say Microsoft, to fund development of some open source
 >>> implementation of the advanced client specs, I could go directly to
 >>> Microsoft and ask them to fund the work directly with whomever would do
 >>> the work - no need to involve Kantara as a middle man.
 >>>
 >>> I see no justification in any of this discussion as to why Kantara has
 >>> to be in the middle and I do see it as a potential means of hiding
 >>> conflicts of interest that would be very detrimental to the reputation
 >>> to the organization should such a case come to actually happen.
 >>>
 >>> So, why can't the outside company just fund the work in a direct
 >>> relationship with the provider?
 >>>
 >>> Conor
 >>>
 >>> *From:* lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org
 >>> [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob Pinheiro
 >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:12 PM
 >>> *Cc:* lc at kantarainitiative.org
 >>> *Subject:* Re: [KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion
 >>>
 >>> So what do you do if you ask these Kantara members for funding, or
other
 >>> in-kind support, including donation of their employee's time, and they
 >>> say no? When a new WG is formed, there is no commitment (either direct
 >>> or implied) by Kantara or its members or Trustee companies to provide
 >>> any direct funding to the WG, nor is there any commitment or
expectation
 >>> that Kantara members will provide in-kind support to the WG, including
 >>> donations of their employee's time to actively participate in WG
 >>> activities. The only commitment that I'm aware of is to provide
 >>> administrative support, mailing lists, teleconference call-in numbers,
 >>> that sort of thing. When a request is made for other support,
either for
 >>> direct funding or in-kind support, the request is reviewed and either
 >>> granted or denied on the basis of a number of considerations, including
 >>> the availability of funds, perceived "importance" or priority of the
 >>> work to be supported, and whether volunteers are available to do the
 >>> work. As the number of WGs increase over time, and funding requests
 >>> increase, I'd expect the availability of these discretionary funds to
 >>> decline.
 >>>
 >>> It's also true that when a new WG is formed, there is no prerequisite
 >>> that there are sufficient bodies willing and able to commit their time
 >>> and energy to do the planned work. The hope is that such resources will
 >>> be available, but it's not a given. May I also point out that not
 >>> everyone who may want to participate in WG activities are corporate
 >>> employees who are getting paid to participate. It's easier to attract
 >>> independents if you can pay them for their efforts. So it's entirely
 >>> reasonable that there will be situations in which WGs are formed, and
 >>> there will be insufficient volunteer participants to actively do the
 >>> work. In many cases, participants are interested in simply being
 >>> observers. And I'm not just talking about the availability of human
 >>> resources, I'm also talking about other things such as obtaining a
 >>> research report that costs money, or conducting a survey (as I believe
 >>> the Information Sharing WG is doing, through an outside consultant).
 >>> Those are only a few examples.
 >>>
 >>> So all I'm saying is that the mere formation of a WG does not guarantee
 >>> that sufficient resources will be available to do the work that is
 >>> planned, and that there is no commitment by Kantara to provide
financial
 >>> or other support (other than what I've indicated above). You could
argue
 >>> that if resources aren't available, the WG should be disbanded or the
 >>> work should be scaled back. I say that WGs should first be able to
 >>> solicit funding from outside sources, and it should be possible to
 >>> earmark those funds specifically for that WG. Now that may turn out to
 >>> be a steep hill to climb, and I'm not saying it would be easy, or
that I
 >>> would even attempt it. Although I might. But that is an option that I
 >>> believe should be on the table, and I think Kantara should have a
 >>> mechanism for handling it.
 >>>
 >>> Bob
 >>>
 >>> On 2/3/2010 4:46 PM, Cahill, Conor P wrote:
 >>>
 >>> I think when a WG is going around actively raising money, that WG is
 >>> getting close to being a new organization.
 >>>
 >>> Kantara **does** have a funding model that **is** based on membership
 >>> fees and which can, if I remember correctly, include directed
membership
 >>> funds. Kantara also allows (has no restrictions against) allowing
 >>> companies to provide in-kind support for a working group (providing a
 >>> bridge for calls, providing people to do work, etc.).
 >>>
 >>> I'm not convinced that we also need or want a model where working
groups
 >>> are going out asking for funding (probably from the same companies that
 >>> Kantara would be wanting to be members of the organization). I'm also
 >>> worried that this somehow is being used to hide how a company actually
 >>> is spending its own money (e.g. Joe Schmoe at MyCompany.Org wants
to pay
 >>> for consulting services from a particular provider for some WG, but his
 >>> company has a restriction that requires consulting $$ to be spent at a
 >>> particular provider that Joe doesn't want to make use of, so Joe tells
 >>> his company that he's going to contribute the money to Kantara who then
 >>> directs it to the consultant that Joe wants to hire).
 >>>
 >>> I would like to see some real examples where a WG requires funding that
 >>> a) isn't being provided by Kantara and b) wouldn't be satisfied by the
 >>> in-kind contribution model.
 >>>
 >>> Conor
 >>>
 >>> *From:* lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org
 >>> <mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>> [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob Pinheiro
 >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:09 PM
 >>> *To:* lc at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>> *Subject:* [KI-LC] WG/DG Funding Discussion
 >>>
 >>> In response to a request from Trent, I'm starting this new thread under
 >>> the subject WG/DG Funding Discussion. My original post, together with
 >>> the replies so far, are below. Please reply to this thread with any
 >>> additional comments and discussion.
 >>> ------------------------------------------------------
 >>>
 >>> One difference I see between the OASIS model and the Kantara situation
 >>> is that the OASIS Member Section Supporting Entities (corresponding to
 >>> WG participants?) are apparently dues-paying members of OASIS, whereas
 >>> WG/DG participants are not necessarily dues-paying members of Kantara.
 >>> So in the OASIS case, redirecting these member dues to support a
 >>> specific Member Section (corresponding to a specific WG/DG?) means less
 >>> funding for other OASIS activities. Hence the need for an analysis of
 >>> the financial impact of doing this, etc. Further, the OASIS Member
 >>> Section must apparently have funding coming from several sources. That
 >>> does not now apply to Kantara WGs/DGs. So I'm not sure how relevant the
 >>> OASIS model is. I'm specifically proposing that WGs/DGs should be able
 >>> to solicit additional funding from anyone (participant organizations,
 >>> other Kantara members, governmental entities, Bill Gates/Warren Buffet,
 >>> or any other entity), and that any funds raised in this way be
 >>> specifically earmarked for use by that WG/DG in accordance with any
 >>> agreement between the WG/DG and the funding entity for how the
funds are
 >>> to be used.
 >>>
 >>> It's OK if the funding goes through the Kantara treasurer, and is then
 >>> doled out to the specific WG/DG, provided that the Kantara treasurer
 >>> cannot divert such funds for other "higher priority" purposes. I would
 >>> also expect that Kantara might take a small (emphasis on small)
chunk of
 >>> these funds to support administrative functions.
 >>>
 >>> In response to Conor's concern about doing "what's right" for
Kantara as
 >>> a whole, versus what's right for a specific WG/DG, I'd argue that it's
 >>> in Kantara's best interest to see all of its WGs/DGs be successful. So
 >>> to the extent that additional funding is needed to enable a WG/DG to be
 >>> successful, and this funding can be raised from outside sources,
that is
 >>> in Kantara's best interest.
 >>>
 >>> Bob
 >>>
 >>> On 2/3/2010 2:48 PM, Colin Wallis wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Further to discussion re this on this morning's call, here is an
excerpt from the process used by our friends in Billericia..
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> (f) The funding model (if any) for the Member Section - Member
Sections optionally may propose in their ROP that a portion of dues paid
by Member Section Supporting Entities be available as Member Section
Funds. The uses and expenditures of such funds must be in accordance
with the rules prescribed in this Policy. If dues allocation is proposed
for this Member Section, the proposers of the Member Section must
provide a budget and work with OASIS Staff to create an analysis of the
financial impact of dues allocation on the OASIS general fund in advance
of the OASIS Board's approval of the ROP, in order to help the OASIS
Board make an informed decision. Further, the Member Section must have
an approved annual budget that shows how Member Section Funds collected
from all sources are used to further Member Section goals.
 >>>
 >>> Member Section Funds come from a variety of sources such as:
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> a percentage of the income from OASIS membership dues paid by the
Member Section Supporting Entities, allocated over the term of the
membership;
 >>>
 >>> a percentage of the income from OASIS sponsorship fees for
sponsoring the Member Section website, allocated over the term of the
membership;
 >>>
 >>> grants of funds from OASIS Members or other funding sources for
work that is in alignment with the scope of that Member Section;
 >>>
 >>> revenue from events conducted by the Member Section; and
 >>>
 >>> (in the case of acquisition of another organization by OASIS) any
funds it may have previously held as a separate organization.
 >>>
 >>> In those Member Sections that accept dues allocations, Member
Section Supporting Entities will have a portion of their OASIS
Membership dues allocated to the Member Section as described above.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Food for thought?
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Cheers
 >>>
 >>> Colin
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> -----Original Message-----
 >>>
 >>>
From:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org>
    [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Cahill, Conor P
 >>>
 >>> Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 5:53 a.m.
 >>>
 >>> To: Bob Pinheiro
 >>>
 >>> Cc: Roger
Sullivan;lc at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>>
 >>> Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Telecon Reminder - February 3 at 17:00 UTC
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> I still think we have to walk a very fine line here between doing
what's right for the organization as a whole and doing what's right for
a particular group.    I can see a lot of potential (real and perceived)
conflict of interest when *Kantara* representatives (members of a
Kantara group) try to raise money in the name of Kantara, but for a
particular group within Kantara.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Conor
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> -----Original Message-----
 >>>
 >>> From: Bob Pinheiro [mailto:kantara at bobpinheiro.com]
 >>>
 >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 11:03 AM
 >>>
 >>> To: Cahill, Conor P
 >>>
 >>> Cc: Roger
Sullivan;joe at switchbook.com<mailto:joe at switchbook.com>;lc at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>>
 >>> Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Telecon Reminder - February 3 at 17:00 UTC
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> I'm not suggesting that the funding not go through the Kantara
 >>>
 >>> treasurer, only that the funding be specifically earmarked for the WG
 >>>
 >>> that raised it, and spent in accordance with whatever agreement is
 >>>
 >>> necessary between the funder and the WG.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> Bob
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> On 2/3/2010 10:50 AM, Cahill, Conor P wrote:
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       I think that in-kind donations of materials/sponsorship (e.g.
paying for a conference booth) and such is fine.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       I have a real problem when cash is provided to a Kantara
entity and that same cash does not go through our treasurer. I believe
that many others had similar concerns.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       Conor
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       -----Original Message-----
 >>>
 >>>
From:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org>
    [mailto:lc-bounces at kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Roger Sullivan
 >>>
 >>>       Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:46 AM
 >>>
 >>>       To:joe at switchbook.com<mailto:joe at switchbook.com>; Bob Pinheiro
 >>>
 >>>       Cc:lc at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>>
 >>>       Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Telecon Reminder - February 3 at 17:00 UTC
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       I would encourage this discussion to flesh out the policies -
especially with regard to (in)appropriate solicitation and application
of funds received.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       This type of project/program funding was explicitly talked
about during the formation of Kantara.    It was not resolved at that
time, but simply tabled for later.    I'm glad that 'later' is now.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       Regards,
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       Roger S.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       -----Original Message-----
 >>>
 >>>       From: Joe Andrieu [mailto:joe at switchbook.com]
 >>>
 >>>       Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:32 AM
 >>>
 >>>       To: Bob Pinheiro
 >>>
 >>>       Cc:lc at kantarainitiative.org<mailto:lc at kantarainitiative.org>
 >>>
 >>>       Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Telecon Reminder - February 3 at 17:00 UTC
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       Bob,
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       I asked about this at the DIDW meetings and was told quite
explicitly
 >>>
 >>>       that there is no reason a WG can't raise funds, either from
activities
 >>>
 >>>       or through sponsorship.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       However, I agree it would be good to have some guidance and
policy as to
 >>>
 >>>       how that would work and what kinds of fundraising are not
appropriate
 >>>
 >>>       and how one would seek approval if the appropriateness is in
question.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       -j
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>       On 2/3/2010 6:57 AM, Bob Pinheiro wrote:
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           AOB: I'd like to put on the table for discussion the
issue of funding
 >>>
 >>>           for individual WGs/DGs.    Right now, each WG/DG must
depend on the
 >>>
 >>>           Kantara organization for funding.    Yet the amount of
funding available
 >>>
 >>>           to a given WG/DG is subject to a number of constraints,
among those
 >>>
 >>>           being: (a) overall availability of funds, (b) requirement
that the work
 >>>
 >>>           must be done by volunteer participants, unless no
volunteers are
 >>>
 >>>           available and the work is deemed by the LC/BoT to be of
sufficient
 >>>
 >>>           importance/priority to merit funding.    Part of the
issue here is that
 >>>
 >>>           volunteer participants will only be able to contribute
their time and
 >>>
 >>>           expertise if their employer deems it in the employer's
interest to do
 >>>
 >>>           so.    Of course there are instances where dedicated
volunteers may
 >>>
 >>>           contribute their own time to WG activities, but that is
the exception
 >>>
 >>>           rather than the rule.    It is also true that many
participants who join
 >>>
 >>>           the various WGs do so with the intent of being observers
rather than
 >>>
 >>>           active participants.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           The end result is that the activities that can be
realistically pursued
 >>>
 >>>           by WGs/DGs are limited by the availability of volunteer
participants as
 >>>
 >>>           well as limitations on funding to seek other resources to
help do the
 >>>
 >>>           work    This situation will likely become more acute as
the number of
 >>>
 >>>           WGs/DG increases.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           I believe that WGs/DGs ought to be able to seek funding
for their
 >>>
 >>>           activities directly from Kantara members, or other
organizations outside
 >>>
 >>>           of Kantara (including governmental entities), and that
this funding
 >>>
 >>>           should be earmarked specifically for the WG/DG to be
spent as deemed
 >>>
 >>>           appropriate by the Chair, with approval from the funders.
    I'm not aware
 >>>
 >>>           that Kantara presently has a policy to allow this to
happen.    I'm
 >>>
 >>>           proposing that such a policy be developed.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           Now I'm not under any illusions here that the existence
of such a policy
 >>>
 >>>           would suddenly result in funds being available to the
Consumer Identity
 >>>
 >>>           WG.    There is still the issue of going out and
soliciting funding,
 >>>
 >>>           demonstrating to potential funders the value of the
proposed work,    as
 >>>
 >>>           well as the challenge of demonstrating why the work
should be done under
 >>>
 >>>           the Kantara umbrella.    And of course the potential
funders themselves
 >>>
 >>>           will have their own budget constraints.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           But I'd like to see Kantara come up with a policy on
this.    So I'm bring
 >>>
 >>>           up this issue now, and proposing that the LC recommend to
the BoT that
 >>>
 >>>           it develop a policy on WG/DG funding from non-Kantara
sources.    This may
 >>>
 >>>           be a topic that should be more fully discussed at the F2F
meeting in March.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           Bob
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>           ---------------------------
 >>>
 >>>           Bob Pinheiro
 >>>
 >>>           Chair, Consumer Identity WG
 >>>
 >>>           908-654-1939
 >>>
 >>>           kantara at bobpinheiro.com<mailto:kantara at bobpinheiro.com>
 >>>
 >>>           www.bobpinheiro.com<http://www.bobpinheiro.com>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >>>
 >>> _______________________________________________
 >>> LC mailing list
 >>> LC at kantarainitiative.org
 >>> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/lc
 >> --
 >> Joe Andrieu
 >> joe at switchbook.com
 >> +1 (805) 705-8651
 >> http://www.switchbook.com
 >>
 >>
 >
 > --
 > Joe Andrieu
 > joe at switchbook.com
 > +1 (805) 705-8651
 > http://www.switchbook.com
 >
 >

--
Joe Andrieu
joe at switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651
http://www.switchbook.com